Interview with Gen. Chris Callahan conducted by Tara Lokke
CC-Yes Ma’am
TL-Thank you again for participating in Beat Your Gums. Please state that you understand the details about my project and knowing that you give your consent in participating under the circumstances agreed upon and signed in the consent and release form.
CC-I agree.
TL-So I’m going to start on the super basics things like your position, your current position, other positions you’ve had, any little bit of your military background.
CC-Sure so I'll start from where I am now my current job I’m referred to as the Adjutant General of Rhode Island that means that I am in charge of the National Guard for the state I am a member of Gov. Remundo's cabinet so basically in the National Guard our role is to be ready for our federal mission which is to support either the army or the air force you know and deploying to those things or be here for the homeland and and to support our homeland with the with the tools and resources we have like helicopters and planes and trucks and things like that so so the current job I've got about 3100 people in the guard, about 840 or so full-time that work with me every day and it’s only been six months, I got promoted six months ago so you know to spin back you know to start from the beginning I got commissioned as a second lieutenant in 1984 about 32 years ago if you're good at math and and then went to flight school what the Army calls initial entry Rotary wing helicopter flight school and was a traditional national guardsmen meaning I did part-time and flew for I think it was four four five years through the early 90s and then in 1992 late 92 when Devon was just my Devon was cannot be born I came on full-time so I’ve been full-time for 22 years or so so an aviator by trade and came up and have been either flying operationally or training people how to fly or something aviation related and that kind stuff for a long time and the and then in 2000 in 2004 I was selected as what we call battalion commander in aviation Battalion Cmdr. which is a organizational structure and in May 2004 I found out that I was gonna go to Iraq at the top of the year so in October of 2004 we mobilized for training the unit did And between Rhode Island Massachusetts for 3 to 4 weeks or so and then Fort Bragg North Carolina for two months we did a whole bunch of training and then went to Iraq right about the top of the year of January 2005 so I spent 2000 that essentially the whole calendar year 2005 through like December 19th or so or 20th I can't remember the exact date but there and came home served in aviation another we call it aviation officer to a little next level job and then came to work at our headquarters in 2000 and and 11 to do what we call our operations officer job which is the kind of the training and plans and those kind of things for the whole state and then took a took command of a what we call a brigade in 2014 2015 remember that 211 14 something like that late 14 early 15 yeah no 14 I’m sorry because it was a year and a half and then this past August 2015 got the new job. That's it in a nutshell thanks for having me and so (laugh).
TL-Well, actually I’d like to know some details about before you joined the National Guard so things like you know where you grew up some family background what made you join?
CC-Sure, sure, yeah no its so yeah it's a great, great question. so I am one of four children from my father and mom, Tom and Pat Callahan, they are, you know, they’re all deceased now and such but that parents are I grew up through my freshman year of high school well what they call junior high back then you guys have a three-year high school they called it junior high now which was like middle school they called it junior high. So I grew up in Newton, Massachusetts my parents divorced in the mid-70s, I was 11,12 pretty ugly divorce very contentious so that was hard and, and then, which was a very interesting move at the time, my dad moved from Newton to Waltham Massachusetts which is equivalent to like moving from North Kingstown to South Kingstown like you’re like, “what? What am I?” you know they’re the enemy or whatever you know they’re that, that's our rival once I moved over the rivals is the next city over, I just, it was physically just a couple miles to the houses and stuff but my dad had remarried and they, well they wanted a different house and all that kind of stuff, so we moved over to Waltham so I spent the last three years of high school in Waltham, Massachusetts but the genesis of the military it’s kind of interesting military itself was not really something foremost in my mind but I sort of have a preoccupation with flying was in airplanes and, and hallicans, and I would draw them I’m an awful artist terrible artist and that's the wrong word that’s the complete wrong word. The um, but, and I didn't really have patience for like models I tried that for a little while like if I would like models and I was like “uph, so tedious” So anyway I didn't really have a you know burning like some kids know like, “I’m gonna be in the military” and or “I’m gonna be a Marine, I’m gonna do this and that” but when I was senior in high school my dad and I had a pretty, so I live with my dad which was different for that time my younger brother and I live with my dad and you wouldn’t have any money for college so it was literally like hey, what are we gonna do? Like, I was an average student yeah a little better than average but nothing spectacular and so I, my dad, you know I want to say it was as late as like, March or April of my senior year, like it was like right now just thinking about not like now kids are waiting to hear right like all my gosh that I get in or not you know it was like what would be doing next year you know how’s it going to work and there was this no kidding, you’d have to your, you like history so you'll enjoy this, so there was this teeny tiny and when I tell you it was you know it was you know an inch by 2 inch advertisement in the newspaper and it said, “free tuition join the National Guard” and there was a phone number my dad called it and said, “hey this is a good idea” and you know and then the guy came over to the house you know and the guy now as it turns out he's a Army noncommissioned officer recruiter guys you know but he's a guy at the time right and you know he does his spiel and everything and my dad goes “this sounds good doesn't it” then I go, “well I guess” (noise) so that's how that went it was really honest-to-goodness it was that fast you know it was like the 1st of May of 1982 that I enlisted it was really quick and, and my dad was I would tell you was kind of, you know the couple things I look back now as an adult, as an adult with kids in college but he was ahead of his time relative to debt management he’s like, “listen,” you know because I could say was fortunate enough I got accepted to like Ithaca College and NBC at the time and, but we couldn't afford to go there. I was a pretty good lacrosse player was the Boston Globe all scholastic lacrosse player but not enough you know to play D1 you know so that wasn't gonna happen so but he was ahead of his time in terms of saying, “listen do this, get your degree go to a state school come out with no you know virtually no debt and then you can do whatever you want, you know you’re not tied to your debt management.” and so I look back now really good decision because I came out of school had no doubt at all is 100% free tuition and then of course I didn't know when I started the whole thing that I was like going to, you know, like it. So I end up you know I like it. Like the physical part of it I like the kind of the work I go to college I like ROTC you know they kind of come after us you know “hey what are you doing why aren’t you in ROTC?”, “ I don’t know, tell me about it”. You know, “I don’t know” so I go I find out a little bit more about it it’s pretty, pretty decent they were pretty good as it turns out I mean you know now how you get and see people they were socially a pretty ‘in’ crowd not more they’re not but 30 years ago they were good dudes they were all in fact the ROTC folks that were students and this is in the early 80s now they were men like they were like real men like they had been in the Army for a while and then decided to go to college so they’re like 25, 26 years old you know so they told you to do stuff you’re like, “ okay I'm doing it!” You know, so but they were good people they treated us like you know little brothers and stuff and it was good and that’s how I got into it you know it was not I just every time a door kind of opened I get interested in it and it was something I sort of gravitated to so.
TL-Do you have any stories from your deployment or any time of your, you know, mid-experience that you’d like to share? It could be funny, it could be anything.
CC-Sure, I mean you know the, you know I think, you know, stories is hard I, I would tell you a couple things about it you know to get the ball rolling in my head one of the things that I did not do well was like people took a lot of pictures you Iraq like “wow look” you know take pictures and pictures and now I’m like, you know, I was the boss at the time you know and I had about you know just under 500 people working for me it was busy I was busy, busy whatever I didn’t take any picture I have no pictures of like there's like I have to go to other people's photo albums to see that like were you actually, were you there? You know and that kind of stuff so I, that is a regret of mine I didn't spend a couple more minutes and take it like everyone who walked through the Saddam Hussein's palace they had this big chair in there that everyone took a, took a picture of, sat in the chair and took a picture, I did not take that picture so I don't I don't have one of those. you know stories in particular you know it's it's for me it was kind of a flowing narrative I think it's different when you have when your responsibilities are different than some other people like I I would tell you that when I hear people that I've played with tell their story I go, “did we go to same place?” How did they have time to think that much about that particular situation and so I think there's a component you know again that I would say maybe I didn't didn't pull it pull it all in but I would say to you that I mean, stories, I don’t know we’ll get to one, we’ll figure one out.
TL-Did you do anything for fun while you were there in your down time? Like, how would you spend the time you weren’t working?
CC-Now that’s good. I would say-(small laugh)- So I took one day off while I was there in a year and my staff asked me to. They’re like, “hey you need to go now” so it was like August of 2005. It’s actually pretty neat. so we lived, I lived in a little box of a room, it was like a metal, you’d kind of look like a camper like one of those offices that you see a construction site you know so it was like one of those and and it was small and shared a little commode with my sergeant major on the opposite side and he had a little room on the other side but it had an air conditioner and so was decent you know it was better than decent actually the thing hummed. So of course there was one, one window in it and we had built a, we had built a plywood desk so I had a little work space you know a little work area there and I had this gross bed like this super stiff mattress thing that we had, D**** had sent me an air mattress or something or I bought and air mattress or something you know to sleep sleep but anyway but I could keep that room when I turned the AC up you know I could keep that thing at like a 65 and it’d be like a hundred and 10 out but anyway so I did take it was funny I did take like 24 hours off while I was in Ballade in Iraq and I went so it was, it was like a Saturday Sunday in August I kinda left work at lunch time left or a little after lunch on Saturday you know like I just take take the day off we’re right here you know you walk everywhere you go and I’m like, “I gotcha” and I knew that I needed to they needed me to be away from them, you know? Thank you for not coming out right? so I ended up binge watching before binge watching was famous on my computer, DVD, I watched the entire like I want to say it was at least 3, 3 seasons of the Sopranos, maybe? Or four whatever the however many there were I had never watched the Sopranos and so there was a stack we had, we had this little library, this common library and I’m like, “hey, you know, any recommendations?” you know I go into the little library there and they’re like- because people would send you stuff, right? the care packages would come all the time and there’d be food of games and there’d be a lot of DVDs and you’d watch them and then give them back so is at least three seasons, I want to say it was three seasons or so, like, or maybe… oh I can’t remember but it was a bunch of episodes like 15 or so and I would go in they’re like about an hour piece and I’d watch like three of them sit in the room I was in my sweat pants and like this whole goofy outfit of like-
(Part of interview is unrecorded due to technical difficulties)
TL-Okay, I’m sorry.
CC-No it’s okay!
TL-Okay, go for it!
CC-Yeah no, You know so so our, you know, the job was basically I had 36 aircrafts that I was responsible for and they’d fly all over the country of Iraq from the central part of Iraq and so we did do as an example on one of our trips traveling around the country was the day before mother's day when we stopped and the crews were able to either you know get on the economy when they were getting fuel or you know however it was working out we picked up say couple dozen roses you know so we could pass them out the next day you know on mother’s day which was nice. You know to gather those up and try to you know you're in Iraq and somehow you know you’re able to find a pizza and where’d you find pizza where’s that at you know or you know you find a rose where’d you find a rose at and so we did kinda had a nice get a nice Mother's Day as best as we could you know to make sure our mom's were recognized so that was kind of a nice thing to do.
TL-So you said you got care packages. Did you have a favorite thing to receive in the mail?
CC-I did. So my favorite I have a friend of mine who called me, a very close friend of mine, and our family now, that that I knew who worked for me while we were deployed and her sister-in-law made these chocolate chip cookies that were pretty pretty good better than pretty good like the best I’ve ever had so those were a hot commodity so that was the number one hot commodity and like you know she had the science down as to how to package things so that they didn’t get destroyed you know because it takes a couple weeks from the states to get all the way to Iraq and stuff so those were fantastic that, but the second the second runner-up was Oreos were pretty pretty good out there you know in terms of a care package of stuff that you that you need you know the funny part of of the you know you never drank so much water in your it's hot there you know and the thing about flying there is that you know when you’re flying in the heli in the Blackhawks you know there’s, there’s no air-conditioning so you’re flying you’re under the glass under the in the cockpit the sun’s coming through it's easily hundred 35/40° you’ve got all sorts of stuff on fire proof stuff, body armor and so you dehydrate pretty, pretty regularly after 4,5,6,7 hours of that in a day you’d be kind of mushy at the end so I have an affinity grew an affinity for what they call near beer because it there was no alcohol allowed so they had like a nonalcoholic beer which I had never drank before and have not since then but it was pretty good if you had a couple of those with like half a can of Pringles that was pretty jazzy after flying all day because you could get the salt back and that kind of thing and didn't, didn’t taste so bad you know this is kind of weird that it's all food related for me isn’t it? You know like, “what did you do? Did you talk to anyone?” No I just ate my way, ate my feelings. So (laughter) I was lonely I had my Oreos (laughter) Oh that’s funny.
TL-So when you came back from your deployment, what did it feel like adjusting back from-?
CC-So I would say that was the hardest part you know and not to the… again for some so for a couple things in life I favor I think one was I was 40 when I deployed and not 20 so I was very mature whether I liked it or not you know I’ve always been an old man even when I was a kid I was like an old man so but so that helped me out a lot because, because things that might have stressed out a younger purchased life experience not not that I’m anything special that was important that helped my adjustment the second piece is the or a another piece of the puzzle though is that as a commander as a leader as you know a military leader you know, which is a very a tangible sort of experience because you’re you know you’re physically there you're emotionally there you’re spiritually there you’re heavily invested the stressors on performance are on very high the stressors on you know that you feel on behalf of the people that work for you is very high you’re feeling the same pull home you know because you know that they feel little guilty because you're not home and but cognitively you understand right that they understand that you can't be thinking about them even though you’re thinking about them you have to so so what happens I think and what happened for me what deployment does in terms of the physical, the physic- I shouldn’t say what it does what it did for- to me- was it put me on a footing that was you know a couple of notches above full RPM like you, you know where you just, you just wouldn't run that hard and that fast and you just couldn't sustain it forever and so when I came home like that doesn't just automatically turn off you know your head is spinning you’re always like problem solving your mind is racing you know your body reacts to that your heart rate comes up you you know there's something else going on you gotta, you know you perceive it I should say you perceive it so it’d be interesting I’d have to maybe last on one of those probably six months so six or nine months to to just dial that back a little bit and I you know I was fortunate I’m not a PTSD person I got you know the but just you know being permanently fired up for a year you’re like (buzzing noise) permanently for 15 months really, almost 18 months you know just game on you know no joking ha-ha you know let’s keep pressing so so the adjustment I think was was okay but I know that I was probably hard to be with for a while you know because you just you still disassociated too a little bit, you feel disassociated you know the, the thing about aviation in that environment in particular and just soldiering in general is that you do become very close to people and, and, and you become close to people you ordinarily maybe wouldn't in the real you know I mean not the real world but in a another setting so that's kinda interesting you know because you feel it’s like you've got these brothers and sisters that you, you know, you love them but you don’t always like them you’re like yeah whatever you know but, but they're very important to you know you’re very loyal to them so and then when that when you know when your plane touched down, touches down to get home that sort of breaks up pretty quickly you know because people want to get back into their families and you’re kind of finding out that that's not necessarily the best process for folks that there is other family that they’ve developed can be very helpful in getting them back into their nuclear traditional family so.
TL-Do you stay in contact with the, you know-
CC-Yeah!
TL-Good! So how did you and D**** meet?
CC-D**** and I met at Fitchburg State College now Fitchburg state University in the lovely Mecca of Fitchburg Massachusetts she was my orientation leader so I was a incoming freshman so we met in August of 1982 and but we didn't start dating and stuff for a couple years she will argue she’ll say “uhl I wanted to see how he turned out” you know and I’m like, she had a boyfriend and stuff at the time she was an upper-classman so I wasn’t, I was a dork so I don't, I still am I didn't like whatever you know so but we ended up with some shared common interests and like it's it's a very small college and a public school and so we had common interest in like student government and you know so I was in ROTC and student government and you know she was in like student orientation all the geek stuff you know so we had like this common geek thing and then, and then I think we were orientation leaders together that summer of 1984 so that’s when we kind of started dating and stuff so.
TL-So how did she and the kids take it when you found out you had to be deployed?
CC-So you know it's hard to say. It’s hard to say. you know the I take, can you pause that? Are you able to do that?
TL-Yeah, absolutely.
(Recording paused for privacy of interviewer)
TL-Okay.
CC-So, so you know the question was about you know how did the family take it and so I would argue that you know on the surface it's kind of a surprise you know and, and you’re like wow this is, this is interesting so so it's a I think like any normal sort of situation that or normal situation is not maybe the right but any startling like situation you’re like “oh” you know there’s a little bit of shock and you know a little like “you?” you know and “them?” and “how?” and “now?” and “when?” and you know and all those kind of questions and but what I think ha- you know so our family were fortunate that we’re pretty tight and the fact that the kids are pretty tight in age group is, is, is good too. what was really hard and it was really hard for them you know the pre-piece, the pre-piece you know “okay why is the pre-piece hard?” well, because you know. because you’re waiting there and and I'm you know so in May of I think it was almost May it was like right around Mother's Day too of 19- I’m sorry of 2004 when I found out and so immediately you're completely hyperfocused you know so you’re physically there but you’re not like really there because you’ve got things to do and planning to do and in that timeframe letup we had a training exercise that was coming just in June like very close like within a month, three weeks or a month or so, June or July we were going to a training a couple weeks of training so so that's kind of weird and then the fact that in the National Guard and true of the reserves but you don't have a common neighborhood so I'm the only person in my neighborhood that you know wasn't there and was in Iraq you know whereas if you know if they lived on Fort Bragg or Fort Drum or wherever you know and they had you know they could go over and you know maybe the Lokke’s have someone in the family deployed you know maybe someone you know because they're all in it together so there are there are like family we call family readiness groups and family readiness resources that are better there that in a regular sort of on post environment you know they’re, they're all kind of ginned up and running hard and and but in a guard kind of environment we have to sort of create those and get them to a point of trust and things like that so D**** had her hands because as the you know the wife of the commander she’s the head of family readiness so you know she's fielding all the phone calls about you know the “when are they leaving?” and you know and “why?” you know she had a we had one soldier who just couldn't because of his the physical way that his foot was created through the through God and/or science there was no there was not a boot in the system that fit his foot, he had to have specially made boots to fit the width of his foot or something so so he’d have to wear these boots that were too big for him and so Donna you know had to field those phone calls from his wife saying “why doesn't he have the right boots? He’s got to have the right boots!” you know and of course we want him to have the right boots but so there’s a pretty pretty broad variety of things that come together but but they share this common this common feature that for the most of them now and you go back ten years this is a couple years after 9/11 you know while reserve units and National Guard units were deploying it was not at this, you know, at this level and, and so it still was unfamiliar to a lot of people it wasn’t impacting everybody to it was still kinda new and it was kinda new in Rhode Island, too, our military police had gone but virtually, you know, no one else certainly no one at the size of aviation in Rhode Island so so that was, it was interesting. But it was, it was hard for them you know, I mean I know it was so.
TL-So what is one thing about yourself that if someone never remembers anything but this one thing, what would you want that to be?
CC-Regarding that experience you think? Or just in general?
TL-Just in general.
CC-I like to believe and I think it's true that I'm other centered service oriented you know I think I have worked hard to to have a career in and to kind of conduct myself in a manner that is about something bigger than myself and I like that you know I like the fact that I've been part of an organization that’s you know bigger than me and, and, and more important than me as an individual and that kind of you know that permeates in how I work you know, obviously professionally but even as a dad you’re like for me at least my sort of thought the legacy is, you know, your children, your family on a larger scale and you know as a coach someone's you know coach for a long time you know that's how the teams comes together and how the kids grow and to mature a little bit so I think that’s sort of where I am.
TL-So what is your big dream and aspiration of your life?
CC-Well my my aspiration is is for my family and for my children to be successful in what they want to so and success being defined as you know health and sustainment and things that make a life important not materialistic so that's kinda what I think about a lot now I don't it's that's a really like as I, as I get near retirement, because that’s going to come either way you know in another couple, three or four years, you know I think about that a lot you know and so Donna and I will go “well you know what’s kind of the next move?” and she’s like, “well you know you can do this or that you could you know do this or that blah blah blah” and I’m like “really?” you know do I, can I like move to Aruba or something? you know, you know I’ve been working for Uncle Sam for a long time you know I’d like that go see like don’t people like Utah and go ski for the winter or something I could do that or something I can work the, the chairlift or something you know just to kind of see what it's like because it I haven't done a good job quite frankly allowing myself to experience other things you know that's that's been a shortcoming and so I’m trying to get better at that as and example. So.
TL-So the last question is do you have anything else or any other stories about your life, not just your military career but, that you’d like to share? Maybe favorite memories or anything like that?
CC-You know it’s hard to pick a favorite you know what's the is the criteria that you use you know to, to go through and go “hey what was a, what was a favorite?” you know I would say that you know one of the things that like deployment and being in that sort of an environment not to get back to military but what it did help me do was it it does help you get a better perspective on things. Or I like to think so. You know you kind of, you’re working hard and you’re working for someone else, right? Like I said it’s other centered your particular needs are not foremost on anyone’s mind and that I think is pretty healthy you know and so that has helped me you know it helps me now now that I have the benefit unlike you know I told you for six or nine months where you’re just permanently fired up you just like, you can't stand inefficiency as an example you come back it’s very, that’s very common for veterans, young veterans or anyone coming back you’re like if the Starbucks kid is not fired up back there going to town at the speed you need him at you’re like, like let's go you know so but once that slows down and you can, you get your perspective back you basically it helps you understand that you do have it pretty good and you're okay with I told D**** will tell you this, it’s kind of a cute story but you know so I live in this this stupid little box right it's a little box it was 12 feet you know by 8 feet or something you know with the bed in it and a little plywood desk you know and thankfully an air conditioner you know which was way better than a lot of people had it. Way better. You know and I had access to water and a toilet you know so it was way better. but I came home and you know I’m about home a couple of months and I was ready to move into my neighbor like our neighbor D*** built this beautiful little shed and I’m like well I want to go there you know I'm a minimalist now I don't you people are making crazy because it’s just, there’s just no freedom of thought you’re just a noise machine at the house right I'm going to move into D***’s, he build a beautiful little shed same exact size, you know I’ll just go put my bed out there and I get my little space and you know so now I have a, I’m like I know why dogs like their houses now I’m all over this like the dog likes his little dog house he fits right in there you know or if he jumps up into his crate of course he loves it! Because it’s his little spot, you know? So you appreciate things now, I think so.
TL-Well if there’s nothing else you’d like to tell me I’d like to say thank you for sharing your stories with me!
CC-Yeah, no, you’re welcome! Yeah, yeah.
TL-And hopefully we will meet again soon!
CC-Yeah that’s awesome!
CC-Yes Ma’am
TL-Thank you again for participating in Beat Your Gums. Please state that you understand the details about my project and knowing that you give your consent in participating under the circumstances agreed upon and signed in the consent and release form.
CC-I agree.
TL-So I’m going to start on the super basics things like your position, your current position, other positions you’ve had, any little bit of your military background.
CC-Sure so I'll start from where I am now my current job I’m referred to as the Adjutant General of Rhode Island that means that I am in charge of the National Guard for the state I am a member of Gov. Remundo's cabinet so basically in the National Guard our role is to be ready for our federal mission which is to support either the army or the air force you know and deploying to those things or be here for the homeland and and to support our homeland with the with the tools and resources we have like helicopters and planes and trucks and things like that so so the current job I've got about 3100 people in the guard, about 840 or so full-time that work with me every day and it’s only been six months, I got promoted six months ago so you know to spin back you know to start from the beginning I got commissioned as a second lieutenant in 1984 about 32 years ago if you're good at math and and then went to flight school what the Army calls initial entry Rotary wing helicopter flight school and was a traditional national guardsmen meaning I did part-time and flew for I think it was four four five years through the early 90s and then in 1992 late 92 when Devon was just my Devon was cannot be born I came on full-time so I’ve been full-time for 22 years or so so an aviator by trade and came up and have been either flying operationally or training people how to fly or something aviation related and that kind stuff for a long time and the and then in 2000 in 2004 I was selected as what we call battalion commander in aviation Battalion Cmdr. which is a organizational structure and in May 2004 I found out that I was gonna go to Iraq at the top of the year so in October of 2004 we mobilized for training the unit did And between Rhode Island Massachusetts for 3 to 4 weeks or so and then Fort Bragg North Carolina for two months we did a whole bunch of training and then went to Iraq right about the top of the year of January 2005 so I spent 2000 that essentially the whole calendar year 2005 through like December 19th or so or 20th I can't remember the exact date but there and came home served in aviation another we call it aviation officer to a little next level job and then came to work at our headquarters in 2000 and and 11 to do what we call our operations officer job which is the kind of the training and plans and those kind of things for the whole state and then took a took command of a what we call a brigade in 2014 2015 remember that 211 14 something like that late 14 early 15 yeah no 14 I’m sorry because it was a year and a half and then this past August 2015 got the new job. That's it in a nutshell thanks for having me and so (laugh).
TL-Well, actually I’d like to know some details about before you joined the National Guard so things like you know where you grew up some family background what made you join?
CC-Sure, sure, yeah no its so yeah it's a great, great question. so I am one of four children from my father and mom, Tom and Pat Callahan, they are, you know, they’re all deceased now and such but that parents are I grew up through my freshman year of high school well what they call junior high back then you guys have a three-year high school they called it junior high now which was like middle school they called it junior high. So I grew up in Newton, Massachusetts my parents divorced in the mid-70s, I was 11,12 pretty ugly divorce very contentious so that was hard and, and then, which was a very interesting move at the time, my dad moved from Newton to Waltham Massachusetts which is equivalent to like moving from North Kingstown to South Kingstown like you’re like, “what? What am I?” you know they’re the enemy or whatever you know they’re that, that's our rival once I moved over the rivals is the next city over, I just, it was physically just a couple miles to the houses and stuff but my dad had remarried and they, well they wanted a different house and all that kind of stuff, so we moved over to Waltham so I spent the last three years of high school in Waltham, Massachusetts but the genesis of the military it’s kind of interesting military itself was not really something foremost in my mind but I sort of have a preoccupation with flying was in airplanes and, and hallicans, and I would draw them I’m an awful artist terrible artist and that's the wrong word that’s the complete wrong word. The um, but, and I didn't really have patience for like models I tried that for a little while like if I would like models and I was like “uph, so tedious” So anyway I didn't really have a you know burning like some kids know like, “I’m gonna be in the military” and or “I’m gonna be a Marine, I’m gonna do this and that” but when I was senior in high school my dad and I had a pretty, so I live with my dad which was different for that time my younger brother and I live with my dad and you wouldn’t have any money for college so it was literally like hey, what are we gonna do? Like, I was an average student yeah a little better than average but nothing spectacular and so I, my dad, you know I want to say it was as late as like, March or April of my senior year, like it was like right now just thinking about not like now kids are waiting to hear right like all my gosh that I get in or not you know it was like what would be doing next year you know how’s it going to work and there was this no kidding, you’d have to your, you like history so you'll enjoy this, so there was this teeny tiny and when I tell you it was you know it was you know an inch by 2 inch advertisement in the newspaper and it said, “free tuition join the National Guard” and there was a phone number my dad called it and said, “hey this is a good idea” and you know and then the guy came over to the house you know and the guy now as it turns out he's a Army noncommissioned officer recruiter guys you know but he's a guy at the time right and you know he does his spiel and everything and my dad goes “this sounds good doesn't it” then I go, “well I guess” (noise) so that's how that went it was really honest-to-goodness it was that fast you know it was like the 1st of May of 1982 that I enlisted it was really quick and, and my dad was I would tell you was kind of, you know the couple things I look back now as an adult, as an adult with kids in college but he was ahead of his time relative to debt management he’s like, “listen,” you know because I could say was fortunate enough I got accepted to like Ithaca College and NBC at the time and, but we couldn't afford to go there. I was a pretty good lacrosse player was the Boston Globe all scholastic lacrosse player but not enough you know to play D1 you know so that wasn't gonna happen so but he was ahead of his time in terms of saying, “listen do this, get your degree go to a state school come out with no you know virtually no debt and then you can do whatever you want, you know you’re not tied to your debt management.” and so I look back now really good decision because I came out of school had no doubt at all is 100% free tuition and then of course I didn't know when I started the whole thing that I was like going to, you know, like it. So I end up you know I like it. Like the physical part of it I like the kind of the work I go to college I like ROTC you know they kind of come after us you know “hey what are you doing why aren’t you in ROTC?”, “ I don’t know, tell me about it”. You know, “I don’t know” so I go I find out a little bit more about it it’s pretty, pretty decent they were pretty good as it turns out I mean you know now how you get and see people they were socially a pretty ‘in’ crowd not more they’re not but 30 years ago they were good dudes they were all in fact the ROTC folks that were students and this is in the early 80s now they were men like they were like real men like they had been in the Army for a while and then decided to go to college so they’re like 25, 26 years old you know so they told you to do stuff you’re like, “ okay I'm doing it!” You know, so but they were good people they treated us like you know little brothers and stuff and it was good and that’s how I got into it you know it was not I just every time a door kind of opened I get interested in it and it was something I sort of gravitated to so.
TL-Do you have any stories from your deployment or any time of your, you know, mid-experience that you’d like to share? It could be funny, it could be anything.
CC-Sure, I mean you know the, you know I think, you know, stories is hard I, I would tell you a couple things about it you know to get the ball rolling in my head one of the things that I did not do well was like people took a lot of pictures you Iraq like “wow look” you know take pictures and pictures and now I’m like, you know, I was the boss at the time you know and I had about you know just under 500 people working for me it was busy I was busy, busy whatever I didn’t take any picture I have no pictures of like there's like I have to go to other people's photo albums to see that like were you actually, were you there? You know and that kind of stuff so I, that is a regret of mine I didn't spend a couple more minutes and take it like everyone who walked through the Saddam Hussein's palace they had this big chair in there that everyone took a, took a picture of, sat in the chair and took a picture, I did not take that picture so I don't I don't have one of those. you know stories in particular you know it's it's for me it was kind of a flowing narrative I think it's different when you have when your responsibilities are different than some other people like I I would tell you that when I hear people that I've played with tell their story I go, “did we go to same place?” How did they have time to think that much about that particular situation and so I think there's a component you know again that I would say maybe I didn't didn't pull it pull it all in but I would say to you that I mean, stories, I don’t know we’ll get to one, we’ll figure one out.
TL-Did you do anything for fun while you were there in your down time? Like, how would you spend the time you weren’t working?
CC-Now that’s good. I would say-(small laugh)- So I took one day off while I was there in a year and my staff asked me to. They’re like, “hey you need to go now” so it was like August of 2005. It’s actually pretty neat. so we lived, I lived in a little box of a room, it was like a metal, you’d kind of look like a camper like one of those offices that you see a construction site you know so it was like one of those and and it was small and shared a little commode with my sergeant major on the opposite side and he had a little room on the other side but it had an air conditioner and so was decent you know it was better than decent actually the thing hummed. So of course there was one, one window in it and we had built a, we had built a plywood desk so I had a little work space you know a little work area there and I had this gross bed like this super stiff mattress thing that we had, D**** had sent me an air mattress or something or I bought and air mattress or something you know to sleep sleep but anyway but I could keep that room when I turned the AC up you know I could keep that thing at like a 65 and it’d be like a hundred and 10 out but anyway so I did take it was funny I did take like 24 hours off while I was in Ballade in Iraq and I went so it was, it was like a Saturday Sunday in August I kinda left work at lunch time left or a little after lunch on Saturday you know like I just take take the day off we’re right here you know you walk everywhere you go and I’m like, “I gotcha” and I knew that I needed to they needed me to be away from them, you know? Thank you for not coming out right? so I ended up binge watching before binge watching was famous on my computer, DVD, I watched the entire like I want to say it was at least 3, 3 seasons of the Sopranos, maybe? Or four whatever the however many there were I had never watched the Sopranos and so there was a stack we had, we had this little library, this common library and I’m like, “hey, you know, any recommendations?” you know I go into the little library there and they’re like- because people would send you stuff, right? the care packages would come all the time and there’d be food of games and there’d be a lot of DVDs and you’d watch them and then give them back so is at least three seasons, I want to say it was three seasons or so, like, or maybe… oh I can’t remember but it was a bunch of episodes like 15 or so and I would go in they’re like about an hour piece and I’d watch like three of them sit in the room I was in my sweat pants and like this whole goofy outfit of like-
(Part of interview is unrecorded due to technical difficulties)
TL-Okay, I’m sorry.
CC-No it’s okay!
TL-Okay, go for it!
CC-Yeah no, You know so so our, you know, the job was basically I had 36 aircrafts that I was responsible for and they’d fly all over the country of Iraq from the central part of Iraq and so we did do as an example on one of our trips traveling around the country was the day before mother's day when we stopped and the crews were able to either you know get on the economy when they were getting fuel or you know however it was working out we picked up say couple dozen roses you know so we could pass them out the next day you know on mother’s day which was nice. You know to gather those up and try to you know you're in Iraq and somehow you know you’re able to find a pizza and where’d you find pizza where’s that at you know or you know you find a rose where’d you find a rose at and so we did kinda had a nice get a nice Mother's Day as best as we could you know to make sure our mom's were recognized so that was kind of a nice thing to do.
TL-So you said you got care packages. Did you have a favorite thing to receive in the mail?
CC-I did. So my favorite I have a friend of mine who called me, a very close friend of mine, and our family now, that that I knew who worked for me while we were deployed and her sister-in-law made these chocolate chip cookies that were pretty pretty good better than pretty good like the best I’ve ever had so those were a hot commodity so that was the number one hot commodity and like you know she had the science down as to how to package things so that they didn’t get destroyed you know because it takes a couple weeks from the states to get all the way to Iraq and stuff so those were fantastic that, but the second the second runner-up was Oreos were pretty pretty good out there you know in terms of a care package of stuff that you that you need you know the funny part of of the you know you never drank so much water in your it's hot there you know and the thing about flying there is that you know when you’re flying in the heli in the Blackhawks you know there’s, there’s no air-conditioning so you’re flying you’re under the glass under the in the cockpit the sun’s coming through it's easily hundred 35/40° you’ve got all sorts of stuff on fire proof stuff, body armor and so you dehydrate pretty, pretty regularly after 4,5,6,7 hours of that in a day you’d be kind of mushy at the end so I have an affinity grew an affinity for what they call near beer because it there was no alcohol allowed so they had like a nonalcoholic beer which I had never drank before and have not since then but it was pretty good if you had a couple of those with like half a can of Pringles that was pretty jazzy after flying all day because you could get the salt back and that kind of thing and didn't, didn’t taste so bad you know this is kind of weird that it's all food related for me isn’t it? You know like, “what did you do? Did you talk to anyone?” No I just ate my way, ate my feelings. So (laughter) I was lonely I had my Oreos (laughter) Oh that’s funny.
TL-So when you came back from your deployment, what did it feel like adjusting back from-?
CC-So I would say that was the hardest part you know and not to the… again for some so for a couple things in life I favor I think one was I was 40 when I deployed and not 20 so I was very mature whether I liked it or not you know I’ve always been an old man even when I was a kid I was like an old man so but so that helped me out a lot because, because things that might have stressed out a younger purchased life experience not not that I’m anything special that was important that helped my adjustment the second piece is the or a another piece of the puzzle though is that as a commander as a leader as you know a military leader you know, which is a very a tangible sort of experience because you’re you know you’re physically there you're emotionally there you’re spiritually there you’re heavily invested the stressors on performance are on very high the stressors on you know that you feel on behalf of the people that work for you is very high you’re feeling the same pull home you know because you know that they feel little guilty because you're not home and but cognitively you understand right that they understand that you can't be thinking about them even though you’re thinking about them you have to so so what happens I think and what happened for me what deployment does in terms of the physical, the physic- I shouldn’t say what it does what it did for- to me- was it put me on a footing that was you know a couple of notches above full RPM like you, you know where you just, you just wouldn't run that hard and that fast and you just couldn't sustain it forever and so when I came home like that doesn't just automatically turn off you know your head is spinning you’re always like problem solving your mind is racing you know your body reacts to that your heart rate comes up you you know there's something else going on you gotta, you know you perceive it I should say you perceive it so it’d be interesting I’d have to maybe last on one of those probably six months so six or nine months to to just dial that back a little bit and I you know I was fortunate I’m not a PTSD person I got you know the but just you know being permanently fired up for a year you’re like (buzzing noise) permanently for 15 months really, almost 18 months you know just game on you know no joking ha-ha you know let’s keep pressing so so the adjustment I think was was okay but I know that I was probably hard to be with for a while you know because you just you still disassociated too a little bit, you feel disassociated you know the, the thing about aviation in that environment in particular and just soldiering in general is that you do become very close to people and, and, and you become close to people you ordinarily maybe wouldn't in the real you know I mean not the real world but in a another setting so that's kinda interesting you know because you feel it’s like you've got these brothers and sisters that you, you know, you love them but you don’t always like them you’re like yeah whatever you know but, but they're very important to you know you’re very loyal to them so and then when that when you know when your plane touched down, touches down to get home that sort of breaks up pretty quickly you know because people want to get back into their families and you’re kind of finding out that that's not necessarily the best process for folks that there is other family that they’ve developed can be very helpful in getting them back into their nuclear traditional family so.
TL-Do you stay in contact with the, you know-
CC-Yeah!
TL-Good! So how did you and D**** meet?
CC-D**** and I met at Fitchburg State College now Fitchburg state University in the lovely Mecca of Fitchburg Massachusetts she was my orientation leader so I was a incoming freshman so we met in August of 1982 and but we didn't start dating and stuff for a couple years she will argue she’ll say “uhl I wanted to see how he turned out” you know and I’m like, she had a boyfriend and stuff at the time she was an upper-classman so I wasn’t, I was a dork so I don't, I still am I didn't like whatever you know so but we ended up with some shared common interests and like it's it's a very small college and a public school and so we had common interest in like student government and you know so I was in ROTC and student government and you know she was in like student orientation all the geek stuff you know so we had like this common geek thing and then, and then I think we were orientation leaders together that summer of 1984 so that’s when we kind of started dating and stuff so.
TL-So how did she and the kids take it when you found out you had to be deployed?
CC-So you know it's hard to say. It’s hard to say. you know the I take, can you pause that? Are you able to do that?
TL-Yeah, absolutely.
(Recording paused for privacy of interviewer)
TL-Okay.
CC-So, so you know the question was about you know how did the family take it and so I would argue that you know on the surface it's kind of a surprise you know and, and you’re like wow this is, this is interesting so so it's a I think like any normal sort of situation that or normal situation is not maybe the right but any startling like situation you’re like “oh” you know there’s a little bit of shock and you know a little like “you?” you know and “them?” and “how?” and “now?” and “when?” and you know and all those kind of questions and but what I think ha- you know so our family were fortunate that we’re pretty tight and the fact that the kids are pretty tight in age group is, is, is good too. what was really hard and it was really hard for them you know the pre-piece, the pre-piece you know “okay why is the pre-piece hard?” well, because you know. because you’re waiting there and and I'm you know so in May of I think it was almost May it was like right around Mother's Day too of 19- I’m sorry of 2004 when I found out and so immediately you're completely hyperfocused you know so you’re physically there but you’re not like really there because you’ve got things to do and planning to do and in that timeframe letup we had a training exercise that was coming just in June like very close like within a month, three weeks or a month or so, June or July we were going to a training a couple weeks of training so so that's kind of weird and then the fact that in the National Guard and true of the reserves but you don't have a common neighborhood so I'm the only person in my neighborhood that you know wasn't there and was in Iraq you know whereas if you know if they lived on Fort Bragg or Fort Drum or wherever you know and they had you know they could go over and you know maybe the Lokke’s have someone in the family deployed you know maybe someone you know because they're all in it together so there are there are like family we call family readiness groups and family readiness resources that are better there that in a regular sort of on post environment you know they’re, they're all kind of ginned up and running hard and and but in a guard kind of environment we have to sort of create those and get them to a point of trust and things like that so D**** had her hands because as the you know the wife of the commander she’s the head of family readiness so you know she's fielding all the phone calls about you know the “when are they leaving?” and you know and “why?” you know she had a we had one soldier who just couldn't because of his the physical way that his foot was created through the through God and/or science there was no there was not a boot in the system that fit his foot, he had to have specially made boots to fit the width of his foot or something so so he’d have to wear these boots that were too big for him and so Donna you know had to field those phone calls from his wife saying “why doesn't he have the right boots? He’s got to have the right boots!” you know and of course we want him to have the right boots but so there’s a pretty pretty broad variety of things that come together but but they share this common this common feature that for the most of them now and you go back ten years this is a couple years after 9/11 you know while reserve units and National Guard units were deploying it was not at this, you know, at this level and, and so it still was unfamiliar to a lot of people it wasn’t impacting everybody to it was still kinda new and it was kinda new in Rhode Island, too, our military police had gone but virtually, you know, no one else certainly no one at the size of aviation in Rhode Island so so that was, it was interesting. But it was, it was hard for them you know, I mean I know it was so.
TL-So what is one thing about yourself that if someone never remembers anything but this one thing, what would you want that to be?
CC-Regarding that experience you think? Or just in general?
TL-Just in general.
CC-I like to believe and I think it's true that I'm other centered service oriented you know I think I have worked hard to to have a career in and to kind of conduct myself in a manner that is about something bigger than myself and I like that you know I like the fact that I've been part of an organization that’s you know bigger than me and, and, and more important than me as an individual and that kind of you know that permeates in how I work you know, obviously professionally but even as a dad you’re like for me at least my sort of thought the legacy is, you know, your children, your family on a larger scale and you know as a coach someone's you know coach for a long time you know that's how the teams comes together and how the kids grow and to mature a little bit so I think that’s sort of where I am.
TL-So what is your big dream and aspiration of your life?
CC-Well my my aspiration is is for my family and for my children to be successful in what they want to so and success being defined as you know health and sustainment and things that make a life important not materialistic so that's kinda what I think about a lot now I don't it's that's a really like as I, as I get near retirement, because that’s going to come either way you know in another couple, three or four years, you know I think about that a lot you know and so Donna and I will go “well you know what’s kind of the next move?” and she’s like, “well you know you can do this or that you could you know do this or that blah blah blah” and I’m like “really?” you know do I, can I like move to Aruba or something? you know, you know I’ve been working for Uncle Sam for a long time you know I’d like that go see like don’t people like Utah and go ski for the winter or something I could do that or something I can work the, the chairlift or something you know just to kind of see what it's like because it I haven't done a good job quite frankly allowing myself to experience other things you know that's that's been a shortcoming and so I’m trying to get better at that as and example. So.
TL-So the last question is do you have anything else or any other stories about your life, not just your military career but, that you’d like to share? Maybe favorite memories or anything like that?
CC-You know it’s hard to pick a favorite you know what's the is the criteria that you use you know to, to go through and go “hey what was a, what was a favorite?” you know I would say that you know one of the things that like deployment and being in that sort of an environment not to get back to military but what it did help me do was it it does help you get a better perspective on things. Or I like to think so. You know you kind of, you’re working hard and you’re working for someone else, right? Like I said it’s other centered your particular needs are not foremost on anyone’s mind and that I think is pretty healthy you know and so that has helped me you know it helps me now now that I have the benefit unlike you know I told you for six or nine months where you’re just permanently fired up you just like, you can't stand inefficiency as an example you come back it’s very, that’s very common for veterans, young veterans or anyone coming back you’re like if the Starbucks kid is not fired up back there going to town at the speed you need him at you’re like, like let's go you know so but once that slows down and you can, you get your perspective back you basically it helps you understand that you do have it pretty good and you're okay with I told D**** will tell you this, it’s kind of a cute story but you know so I live in this this stupid little box right it's a little box it was 12 feet you know by 8 feet or something you know with the bed in it and a little plywood desk you know and thankfully an air conditioner you know which was way better than a lot of people had it. Way better. You know and I had access to water and a toilet you know so it was way better. but I came home and you know I’m about home a couple of months and I was ready to move into my neighbor like our neighbor D*** built this beautiful little shed and I’m like well I want to go there you know I'm a minimalist now I don't you people are making crazy because it’s just, there’s just no freedom of thought you’re just a noise machine at the house right I'm going to move into D***’s, he build a beautiful little shed same exact size, you know I’ll just go put my bed out there and I get my little space and you know so now I have a, I’m like I know why dogs like their houses now I’m all over this like the dog likes his little dog house he fits right in there you know or if he jumps up into his crate of course he loves it! Because it’s his little spot, you know? So you appreciate things now, I think so.
TL-Well if there’s nothing else you’d like to tell me I’d like to say thank you for sharing your stories with me!
CC-Yeah, no, you’re welcome! Yeah, yeah.
TL-And hopefully we will meet again soon!
CC-Yeah that’s awesome!